Tuesday, November 22, 2005

Cheney says we're staying...But the Iraqi leaders want us to go

Awkward....

Timetable=Cowardice if you ask the GOP, but Timetable=Sovereignty if you ask the Iraqis we've been fighting so hard to liberate.

The Iraqi leaders even said that their opposition have a "legitimate right of resistance."

I suppose that most members of the pro-war crowd are going to call the Iraqis ungrateful...But if we liberated them so they can self govern, that's what we should let them do. Even if they sound like Democrats to your Republican ears. I wonder if Bush and Company will come down on the Iraqi leaders with venom equal to that which they spewed on the Democrats when they called for exactly the same things.

In addition to saying that the insurgents are not terrorists, that they want a timetable for the pullout of all foreign troops, they also want the release of all detainees who have not been convicted of (or charged with, for that matter) crimes by actual courts.

They wanted an investigation into allegations of torture.

They also demanded an immediate end to arbitrary raids and arrests without a documented judicial order.

Gosh, that all sounds pretty reasonable to me. Similar to what America used to be like before September 11th and the forfeiture of our individual freedoms and liberties in exchange for this dubiously elevated level of national security.

If the three rival Iraqi factions can get together and issue this clear statement of unity, I finally have a little hope for unity in Iraq...Too bad they are becoming unified against us.

Colin Powell is too classy to say "I told you so." I have no class, so I'll say it for him.

We told you so.

The only question now is will America let Iraq be Iraq or will we be forced to admit we had less than honorable intentions from the git go?

Sources:

14 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Archie-What is this focus on individual freedoms and liberties? What have you had to give up? No one will be coming to your door to take you away. Oh by the way did you hear that Giant Stadium is now making a special place for praying?Not because Christians were praying at a game but because Muslims were. Meanwhile they want to take God off our money and take it out of the pledge too.
If someone is suspected of terror plots they are not held without cause. See you probably wanted Jose Padilla set free,now he is being indicted. Wouldn't you rather suspects are taken into custody or should we just hope our suspicions don't pan out? We have to make sure because I will bet 9 out of 10 times the suspicions are in fact worthy.
VET

7:39 AM  
Anonymous Joshua said...

Vet -

You really are not much of a thinker, nor do you care about the constitution (which guards our individual rights and freedoms and has been trashed by this administration) or are you at all compassionate for the men, women and children who have been victimized by this illegal and unethical war to protect us from an imminent attack from WMD's that did not exist.

I don't know who you are, but I know one thing - for believing as you do, you are a seriously misguided person, willfully ignorant enough to do damage to the freedoms this country was founded on.

Now I know that you're a Vet (because you're good enough to sign ALL your posts as such) and fought to defend our freedoms, but that does not get you a free pass to NOT think, NOT question or NOT to be critized - you have a right to say what you think and I have just as much right to tell you that you are absolutely full of it and you should be ashamed of yourself.

My late grandfather was also a Vet, fought in WWII and while he was good in some ways, he was also an unmitigated racist who hated people of color (and probably have disapproved of my own interracial marriage) and his service to our country, honorable though it may have been, didn't make him right about black people, anymore than you are right about the dishonest, negligent man we have in the officee of our president. Shame on you, sir, for your willful ignorance, shame on you.

Since you like the internet, I suggest that you google "Bush lies" and read up on HOW the man has lied. It's well documented. And if you are correct, reading such material should only give you more information for dealing with people such as Archie and myself.

But you are not correct, sir, you are deliberately avoiding the truth, just like the racists in the sixties did, and there is nothing that ticks me off more than that. I really think that you should be ashamed for the unfounded things you claim to believe.

4:32 PM  
Blogger Archie Levine said...

VET,

Individual freedoms and liberties are what all those boys and girls in Iraq are fighting to defend, aren't they? Is it supporting them to stop focusing on them?

Maybe nobody is going to come to my door and take me away, but plenty of people have been.

Why do you think God is on our money? Why do you think God wants to be on our money? Isn't love of money the root of all evil?

I think the greatest victory the terrorists have achieved is legitimizing the idea that suspicion=fact. That is what has made it possible for you, a vet, to think it is ok to defend this nation by changing it fundamentally into something far from the principles which once defined it.

I never said I wanted Padilla set free. I said I wanted him charged and tried by an American court, because he is an American Citizen.

You are correct, he has been indicted but not on the original "suspicions". This indictment charging he wanted to give support to killing people in foreign nations and not that he wanted to set off a dirty bomb inside the United States. What are we supposed to think in this case other than that they are merely trying to halt his appeals?

Face it...Dick Durbin was right, and instead of dealing with the fact that we are doing things in the world that we would never normall characterize as American, you attack his moral character for making the comparison.

Lastly, my friend, justice isn't supposed to be a gamble...it is supposed to be a decision based on a preponderance of evidence.

At some point we have to ask ourselves is survival actually survival if in order to survive we have sacrificed our most basic self-defining principles.

I don't believe that it is.

You are free to disagree, and continue betting that you never fall afoul of the system of immediate vengeance based on suspcion that you are creating.

6:05 AM  
Blogger Archie Levine said...

Oh, yeah, and it must be because I haven't finished my morning coffee, I let you distract me from the content of the original post.

Vet, how do you feel about the Iraqis asking for what the Democrats have been asking for since this nightmare started?

Are they as wrong about how their country should be run, and how the conduct of this war in their country should be executed as I am, since the Kurds, Sunnis, and Shiites all seem to share the same positions as I do?

6:08 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

You can google "Clinton Lies" too.
I still dOn't know what individual freedoms you were forced to give up?
I never said I was prejiduice either. I like the way you interept what I wrote. In about 10 years you can look back and I can say I told you so.
The WMD'S that do not nessecarily exist but we haven't found were also claimed by the previous administration that they "Do exist and he will use them",but now because we didn't find them all of a sudden they changed their tune. Whatever is convenient at the time.
VET

11:54 AM  
Anonymous Joshua said...

No one here has brought up Clinton, Vet, so why the hell are you? Don't you have anything solid to throw at us except a politician who cheated on his wife and lied about it over FIVE years ago!? What does that HAVE to do with what's been going on NOW?

Who the hell cares about Clinton? Are you stupid or something? What does Clinton have to do with anything?

And by the way, lying about an affair and lying about WMD's, which one is worse? We've spent over 200 billion and thousands of lives on the last one, you blind fool.

And the reason I compare your stance to bigotry is because both points a view share a willfull choice to NOT look at the facts or truth of the matter. Bigots do not want to believe that people of color are the same as anyone where and so they REFUSE to consider any evidence to the contrary.

Bushies do not want to believe their man has lied and made mistakes and so they RESUSE to consider any evidence to the contrary.

It's called willful ignorance, and it's that POV that gets people killed.

I am not willfully ignorant, and if you can supply me with solid, factually based evidence that Bush has done a good job, I will consider it. If it's solid and for real, I will change my view.

But there is no evidence as such. I know, because I've looked for it.

Instead America is imprisoning people for four years without trial or evidence, without letting them contact their family. Instead America is invading countries illegally. Instead America is torturing prisoners of war, flouting the Geneva Convention and the values my grandfather and everyone who served in WWII fought for.

Instead mindless idiots such as yourself pat yourself on the back and talk about bringing god to heathens. Instead men and women in uniform die protecting us from a threat that did not exist. Instead, five years after promising to protect this country, hundreds of poor people are stranded after a hurricane because the FEMA director (appointed by Bush) is more worried about where he's going to eat instead of the people dying. Instead our VP is lobbying for open torture.

Instead you bring up Clinton as an example of how things go wrong?! You are a pure, cast-iron fool.

Jesus H. Christ. You make me sick.

2:52 PM  
Anonymous Joshua said...

And by the way, your claim about WMD's. Here are some quotes for you.

"He has not developed any significant capacity with respect to Weapons of Mass Destruction. He is unable to project conventional power against his neighbors."
Colin Powell, Feb 24, 2001.

"Simply stated, there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction."
Dick Cheney. Aug 26, 2002

"Intellegence gathered by this and other governments leave no doubt that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons every devised."
Bush - March 17, 2003

"We have high confidence that they have weapons of mass destruction. This is what this war was about and is about. And we have high confidence it will be found."
Ari Fleischer, April 14 2003.

"I think in this case international law stood in teh way of doing the right thing."
Defense Policy Board member Richard Perle, admitting that the Iraq invasion is illegal, Nov 19, 2003.

And then there's this.

"There was never a clear and present danger. There was never an imminent threat. Iraq - and we have very good intelligence on this - was never a part of the picture of terrorism."
Mel Goodman, CIA analyst who now teaches at the National War College.

Got that, Vet?

this is what's wrong with the picture and why I and others like me are angry.

Whether or not "Clinton" said Saddam was dangerous or had weapons or danced a tango is immaterial to this discussion because "Clinton" wasn't in charge, "Clinton" didn't make the choice to invade a country illegally, "Clinton" didn't send us to war to protect us from a threat that did not EXIST.

And for the record, if it's not obvious already, I'm past being polite with you about this. You're a terrible person for the unfounded crap you are projecting on this issue. People are dying, dumbass.

Archie, if you wish me to take my leave, I will, but men like VET here are doing great damage to a once great country and it really pisses me off.

3:06 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Joshua you probably wouldn't know a nuke till it hit you in the face.
Yeah people are dying,I don't defend that,but why was it okay for people to die went Clinton sent 400 cruise missles into Baghdad? People die in war you don't have to convince me of all people. And the reason I bring up Clinton is because all this started then or are you having short term memory loss?
Saddam Hussein was taken from power,that's what the democrats said then and when you say torture what do you mean by that?
Which way is the wind blowing today?
You just hate that there are other ways to get the facts other than what we are being fed by the likes of Ted Kennedy and John Kerry. You remember them,the ones who agreed to go to Iraq.
Maybe we should have left Hussein in power and taken our chances. But then what would we hear? "Saddam was a threat and Bush should have done something". We have been able to cut funding to Alqueda and we are continuing to break up cells and and ones in America. It's a long fight but one that is necessary to ensure our safety.
TALK ABOUT BLIND!
Just be glad we have a strong military or would you feel safer in France?
VET
VET

7:23 AM  
Anonymous Joshua said...

It didn't START with Clinton, it started with the first President Bush, Vet you ignorant jackass, started with that Bush when he was VP for Reagan. When we partnered with Iraq and gave them weapons which he then used upon his own people. That didn't start with Clinton.

And I do support a strong military, and as long as our military is lead by a commander in chief who makes fatal mistakes about WMDs WE DO NOT HAVE ONE!

As long as we have a commander in chief who ignores his PDB's about a terrorist attack on our soil and then lets it happen WE DO NOT HAVE ONE.

As long as we have a commander in chief who lies to us on television, WE DO NOT HAVE ONE.

People are dying UNNECESSARILY in a way that is ILLEGAL and UNNECESSARY because WE DIDN'T NEED TO INVADE IRAQ TO BE PROTECTED FROM IT!

Saddam WASN'T A THREAT TO US OR HIS NEIGHBORS, or DID YOU NOT READ POWEL'S QUOTE.

Iraq and Saddamn HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH AL QUEDA and that's been documented by our own REPUBLICAN LED CONGRESS, you moron.

Fuck Clinton, I don't care about him then and still don't. You use him as a rod to excuse lapses in the Republican party leadership and that's just simply pathetic.

Vet, you are an ignorant FUCKTARD and loon, fuck you. Learn to fucking read and do some fucking research, because your arguments don't come even close to holding water.

Not only that, but fuck you, Vet. Fuck you for even speaking like Bush has done anything close to right. People like you defended Nixon and were proven wrong and in time, so will you but in the meantime, fuck you.

Archie, if this man is an example of what you call christian, I'm sure glad to have left that group long ago. You deserve better company.

7:35 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

http://www.factcheck.org/article358.html

7:39 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

right back at you, anon -

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ian-masters/dishonest-mistakes_b_11112.html

10:14 AM  
Blogger Archie Levine said...

Now, boys, you play nice and polite. I haven't had to delete a comment for offensive content yet, and I hate to start with any of my loyal readers.

Remember, lead by example.

And spend a little time with your families! It's Thanksgiving, fer crying out loud!

11:15 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/11/27/91942.shtml

8:13 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hope you had a nice Thanksgiving Archie. I will try to play nice.
VET

12:54 PM  

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